Level 17 - 24, in the era of Recursion.

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Comments

  • gazzas89gazzas89 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh, I didnr know that one, someone told me I lost them, but still, I dont see the benefit other than the wings at the side of my name, which doesn't matter to me lol

  • People griped the same statements about 9-16, and then the community was excited when they were released.

    Anything over 8 is just "more AP and badges", yet people push to get 16.

    Either way, this is about giving people comparable goals, to generate more activity. If you have a better externally presented goals, feel free to post them. It's all good discussion for Niantic.

  • I used an average increase based on the 9-16 numbers. The in relative terms, the % jump from 15-16 is higher than 23-24. But yes, the numbers can easily be adjusted.

  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the sort of idea that I'd like to see fleshed out and debated — opportunities to "personalize" who I am in-game, as an Agent, beyond just choosing stats and medals and AP to aim for.

    I really don't have anything against adding L17–L24 to the game, other than it seems like nothing more than adding a stats grind to the game for the sake of adding a stats grind, which doesn't excite me. Recursion is fun for that brief period of time, L1–L8, where the game board is no longer mine to do with as I please; the rest of the trip back to L16 is just, well, the same old thing I've been for a hundreds of millions of AP.

  • VenomousToadVenomousToad ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who gets a battle beacon each month? That's news to me. It's a great ap engine.

  • aaronviannoaaronvianno ✭✭✭✭

    The way Pokémon Go did new levels was really great.

    If Ingress has to add new levels it has to keep L16 + 1 Recursion as the base. No escaping that now. And even then it's super complicated. So direct new levels doesn't seem practical.

    On the other hand, a secondary profile / skill profile could be added. Based on the previous ideas about specialised player roles. APs could be used to collect points for that. Get agents closer to the Sensitive abilities portrayed throughout the Ingress lore. Larger action radius, more fire power, higher crit %, more stickiness on shields deployed, more recharge efficiency, more recharge range, more mods deployable, more L8 resos deployable, mod removal ability, drone-based transfer abilities, encrypted comm messages, proximity alerts for nearby enemy agents, etc.

  • edited February 2021

    If Ingress has to add new levels it has to keep L16 + 1 Recursion as the base. 

    It really doesn't have to. That's the point. They can choose too, sure, but if there's a penalty for people who've kept levelling without Recursing because Recursion had no benefits for two years, there's going to be a huge outcry.

  • VenomousToadVenomousToad ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great Scott I should have actually read what it is before I subscribed.

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    It seems like you just want to retcon recursion out of existence.

  • Literally included the fact that you a) keep your stat and wings, and b) can return to recursing to your heart's content at 24. So no.

  • To expand on the Recursion point.

    1. Recursion has offered no substantial benefits... ever. A battle beacon in the new subscription, and wings, are the only benefits.
    2. The purpose of Recursion was to give us a way to have "something to do" while there was no existing further levels, and Prime was too discombobulated to consider any sort of actual advancement process.
    3. Many people have chosen not to recurse at all, or recurse at infrequent points, because it gains you nothing.

    So expanding the levels would lose you nothing from point one, since it doesn't offer any new rewards either. New levels with a far longer AP requirement would provide both an incentive for those who didn't recurse and those that did, since it would be above all but a handful of people's AP anyway, and there would be consumate badge requirements. And by expanding levels with everyone set on the original track initially, would put both people who chose to push a button and people who chose to not push a button because it only caused them to lose things they'd gained, without gaining anything new, on an even footing. Personally I've recursed twice because I was bored and thought it'd motivate me, but I don't see a point to doing it more, because it's no different to simply 'gaining AP' as there's no additional rewards available.

    Recursion was a stopgap measure. It does not preclude expanding new levels, and once you hit level 24, you should be able to wait 4 hours and recurse again, if that's your desire. Recursing has always been essentially meaningless 'make work', to provide a simple 40 Million AP counter, for players. It can be that again, once you hit 24.

    And again, this is only one option for progression. It's not the only one, but the lack of any benefits for Recursion, suddenly turning into significant progress benefits, would be a slap against those who chose not to recurse.

    On that note, a better method for "Points towards a skill tree", would be "One point per 40 million AP gained".

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lv24 being over a billion AP Just makes your neo-recursion practically impossible to 99% of the userbase.

    And old players keeping the recursed wings and emblem is extremely unfair to new players, who will need absurd effort for something almost meaningless.

    You're just butchering up all recursion's perks in a attempt to please a niche.

  • edited February 2021

    Lv24 being over a billion AP Just makes your neo-recursion practically impossible to 99% of the userbase.

    As a mechanism that gives people a goal to always have, that's a good thing.

    However, the numbers are literally just a possible representation. Don't get hung up on a billion AP. You could simply make each new level an extra 40 million points and it wouldn't change the effects of the system. The point is that "16+1 Recursion" is not inescapable.

    all recursion's perks

    You mean wings. Until the subscription the only benefit has been wings. That's the only thing we ever got for it...

    Feel free to propose an alternate method (in detail). I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, if all you want to do is "**** down every suggestion", you've made your points.

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    Feel free to propose an alternate method (in detail). I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, if all you want to do is "**** down every suggestion", you've made your points.

    There's no need for a detailed brand new proposal just to disagree with you.


    You're cleary just trying to remove recursion, with a elaborate excuse of adding new levels, but you are avoiding the fact that recursion is the next level.

  • I disagree that "Do everything again for no gain" is a realistic progression meter for the average player. For example, in the 300 Million AP+ group on Agent Stats, there are only 78 agents out of hundreds that have done more than 2 recursions. @Coo3 with the 2nd highest AP in the game (as of 27th Feb) has 1.2 billion AP and has never recursed. @phthoruth with 1.08 billion (as of 24th Feb) at number 9 on that list, has also never recursed.

    I'm not "trying to remove recursion". I'm highlighting that a different method might motivate people to do it more than twice. As we come out of the pandemic downturn, people are going to be looking for new things to do, or return to old outdoor hobbies. A new progression metric would be one way to get people interested again. "Oh hey, they raised the level cap!"

    If you're not motivated by new levels, that's fine. But after one or two recursions, the evidence is that even for people with very high AP totals, Recursion is not a motivator.

    This post was merely one possible idea. If others feel that there's a better or different motivating idea to get players back into the game, I encourage them to make a post outlining their idea. That's how these things become part of the game.

    If all you've got is "Don't take my recursion away from me", then feel free to highlight why Recursion beyond once or twice is actually motivating. Feel free to provide stats.

  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭

    [T]he lack of any benefits for Recursion, suddenly turning into significant progress benefits, would be a slap against those who chose not to recurse.

    There is another option for giving benefits to Recursion: At the release of said "significant" benefits, give everyone retroactive credit based on their all time AP by setting each agent's recursion count as if they had recursed every 40M AP.

    Without any further adjustments, everyone starts out roughly equal, regardless of how they chose to grind out AP. Those who are currently recursed and not yet L16 again essentially get their current recursion's AP double counted in terms of progressing their recursion count, which I might file under "early adopter bonus" (benefits, however undefined, were actually "promised" at the very beginning…).

  • edited February 2021

    There is another option for giving benefits to Recursion: At the release of said "significant" benefits, give everyone retroactive credit based on their all time AP by setting each agent's recursion count as if they had recursed every 40M AP.

    So what I said above:

    On that note, a better method for "Points towards a skill tree", would be "One point per 40 million AP gained".

    If you're going to base the points on AP, I wouldn't use the number of recursions. Because for the average player, 1 or 2 recursions is as far as they went, no matter the AP. Just base it on Lifetime AP, and let them keep doing the 1-16 grind or just grind AP, as desired.

    EDIT: Grind is ok, but grind-ing is bad, @NianticCasey ?

  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    Because for the average player, 1 or 2 recursions is as far as they went, no matter the AP.

    Possibly because Recursion currently does not provide any significant benefits? That observation isn't predictive for a world where Recursion does provide significant benefits.

    I don't want to assign points based on AP. I want to assign points based on recursions. But if people are going to be upset that they're one of the relative few with a bazillion AP that haven't recursed as much as they could have and thus draw the short straw in such a scheme, well, what I suggested is one way to potentially address that concern.

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    tl;dr: recursion is evil, no it's not


    Battle Beacons are awarded to players who are level 16 or higher, instead of as a recursion benefit.

    The only real recursion benefit until now, and you want to remove it.



    One possible change could be that wings are awarded at level 16, instead of on Recursion.

    Again, giving away the only difference tha recursion have, allowing players that refused to recurse to get it.



    How about "Every 40 million AP, you are offered a free faction change"?

    You just gave away all the current perks of recursion to people who didn't want it.



    Fair enough, but given the vast majority of players have chosen to recurse, I think the 'average outlook' is a willingness to play to goals provided by the game.

    Here you're acknowledging the fact the majority likes and want to recurse, and yet want to take it away thinking about a minority. Recursing is one goal provided by the game too, and it also unlock several new goals (2x/wings on all ranked badges). Instead of just **** AP, a recursed agent can focus his efforts in all other onyx badges to earn its wings.



    But as outlined above Recursion doesn't *prevent* higher levels if Niantic choose to pursue that.

    But Niantic choosed Recursion, and it's not a pioneer on that kind of choice. The company have the data they need to decide it.



    but the lack of any benefits for Recursion, suddenly turning into significant progress benefits, would be a slap against those who chose not to recurse

    Again taking the side of a minority that refused to "level up". Being the minority is always being on disavantage. But, the solution for this problem is not removing recursion, but adding benefits to recursion. All methods you proposed will just increase the number os members on that minority, because as hard as top level became, the less motivate people will be to reset their progress.



    if there's a penalty for people who've kept levelling without Recursing because Recursion had no benefits for two years, there's going to be a huge outcry.

    Not true. It isn't going to be huge because they're the minority. And again, the solution is to provide benefits to recursion, not ignoring/removing it just to please a sttuborn minority. And there's two sides of that coin, one that already have all the AP needed to level up and the other already having the recursion.

    And if that's your biggest fear, new levels can be added just like pokémon did, with everyone that was already maxed out the level and had enourmous ammounts of AP starting at the exatcly same point.



    If you're not motivated by new levels, that's fine. But after one or two recursions, the evidence is that even for people with very high AP totals, Recursion is not a motivator.

    You just need to recurse once to unlock all its perks and benefits. Doing it again is just a personal choice. You can gather your friends and recurse together and see who hit 16 again, or just grind the Recursion badge+ times X



    Anyway, I just bored myself. Please don't quote or try to counter any of my statements above, I not in the mood for your endless discussions (quote the following if you want), because my intention was just to show how many times you were just argueing against the recursion, as if it is "evil" and need to be removed. I'm not against the addition of new levels, but the border is already set and it is the recursion. New access levels is just the perfect benefit to be added to recursion. Archetypes skilltree is also a good way to provide "motivation", and could also fit as something exclusive to simulacrums.

  • The only real recursion benefit until now, and you want to remove it.

    From the original post: Battle Beacons are awarded to players who are level 16 or higher, instead of as a recursion benefit.

    You'll still get your Battle Beacon for getting to 40,000,001 AP.

    Again, giving away the only difference tha recursion have, allowing players that refused to recurse to get it.

    What?

    But Niantic choosed Recursion, and it's not a pioneer on that kind of choice. The company have the data they need to decide it.

    A completely different Product Manager chose this method, and failed to include any significant benefits. We now have a new person in charge, and player feedback is one of those data points to suggest things that could change and how, thus this post.

    I'm not going to go through the rest of the points because they're all literally:

    I recursed and I feel that makes me better than someone who didn't, and I want to keep feeling that way.

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    I'm not going to go through the rest of the points because they're all literally:

    I recursed and I feel that makes me better than someone who didn't, and I want to keep feeling that way.

    If that's what you see them I can happly leave this discussion because everything you said and will say next is just "My opinion is the only one that matters and no one have the rights to disagree, my ideas are the best and everybody should agree".

    You're not open to discussion, unless it is praising your side.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    A lot of people *like* doing multiple recursions.

    Some compete for fastest recursion.

    I like the idea of specialist rolls but extra levels are not needed for this.

    Apart from the recurse part it also offers a free faction change people also like.

    Level 16 is a hard achievement for the majority of players, but reachable.

    Rural players take forever to get to 16 and are very proud of the achievement, you would be basically removing that.

  • edited February 2021

    Just to clarify, your argument is "I don't like it and I want to keep Recursion", so "You're not open to discussion, unless it is praising your side." is a bit of an absurd argument to raise.

    Your argument is that you don't like this, so you expect me to simply stop discussing it? The point of discussion is to take different opinions and discuss them. I've literally suggested other people's views are open for discussion. You simply don't want to discuss it.

     I not in the mood for your endless discussions

    Yet here you are.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most ppl seem against the idea.

    Come up with a new one.

  • edited February 2021

    The same two people posting over and over aren't "most people".

    Like I said, I'm happy to comment on someone suggesting an alternate solution.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    The same one person posting again n again that its a good idea does not make it so.

    People can just not like an idea without having to come up with a replacement you know.

    Post edited by SSSputnik on
  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭

    Solution to what?

    This thread started with a post that answers, "How do we add L17–L24 to Ingress?" without having articulated why that's necessary in the first place.

    Indeed, of the folks I normally chat with, no one's asking for more levels; they're all wondering when Recursion will come with "real" benefits. L16 is a slog as it is for most folk.

    As far as Recursion benefits go, ideas I keep hearing are things like skill trees, specializations, and permanent 2x R7 deploys. If Niantic needs its players to spell these out in great detail for them, they need to hire some game designers and visionaries, get off their tushes, and do some real work. Develop an understanding of what the players actually want, not what they say they want.

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