A simple proposal for Quantum Capsules

HosetteHosette ✭✭✭✭✭

Capsule duplication should be triggered by the user's first hack of the day, either in-person or by drone.

There are two good things that come out of this. The first is that it removes the need for a background process that scans all of the capsules once a day, which @NianticBrian suggested may be contributing to lag. The second is that inactive accounts can no longer be used to duplicate gear-- they would have to make at least a small effort every day.

I'm not sure how big a problem capsule farms really are. People talk about them as though they are a significant problem but I've never suspected that I've encountered a player doing this on a large scale. Sure, someone might have their partner and kids holding a few quantum caps but that seems materially different than having a large collection of accounts doing nothing but duping items.

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Comments

  • Stop key duplication altogether.

    People talk about them as though they are a significant problem but I've never suspected that I've encountered a player doing this on a large scale.

    Because you're not asking them about their backpack accounts. In the "Ingress Heartland" you can believe that everyone plays legitimately, but in other places, people have multiple or even tens of backpack accounts.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah. Come across ppl with dozens.

    I'd prefer an action thats COMM visible as opposed to a hack.

  • Like this idea. Rewarding active players ... yet what if you drone is returned and you are out not able to reach a portal .... .

    As for key duplication... it's not really essential for the game for me

  • I support this... But like @SSSputnik , I would also prefer a comm visible action over a blind hack

  • HosetteHosette ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2022

    I can see a fairly strong argument for comm-visible activities but there are cases and places where that's going to be difficult. Imagine living in an area that's solidly owned by your faction, for example. Is it reasonable to ask someone to drive a few miles just to take a comm-visible action? Is it reasonable to ask them to flip a portal just so their capsules dupe? I can also imagine people in situations where they can't physically get to a portal (they're in a remote area, they're in the hospital, etc.) every day but are doing the things they can remotely like recharging and drone hacking.

    I can also imagine cases where you don't want to reveal your location right away, like traveling for an op.

    Maybe there's a compromise, like requiring a comm-visible action within the last week?

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭

    How about, comm visible action and tough luck if you can't?

    Quantum cap duplication is non essential and random anyway, a few missed days would not hurt anyone.

  • If quantum's duplicating is so important for that agent, they should find a way...


    Not having it dupe for 1 or more days isn't going to k1ll their will to play

  • DrHydrosaurDrHydrosaur ✭✭✭✭

    I agree that it should not be considered a big deal to require a comm visible action to trigger quantum duplication. It’s not like there’s a badge for consecutive days duplicating an item.

    So that would mean either capturing a portal or throwing a link/field?

  • edited November 2022

    The question with "Comm visible actions" is "why?".

    If it's "So I can catch them", we're back to "You are not the Ingress Police, and the Ingress Police will ignore your 'evidence' anyway". If it somehow makes things harder for them, why?

    Basically, if Niantic is going to ignore multi-accounting, it doesn't matter if it's comm visible or not. Niantic is going to ignore multi-accounting.

    None of this goes back to players, it's all on the inability for Niantic to act on both multi-accounting and backpacks. It doesn't matter how much we report them, if they're never dealt with, and Niantic's shown zero interest in acting on the blatant cheating.

    The easier solution is to either disable key duplication or simply remove Quantums.

  • Why comm-visible actions?

    Not to police, but to deter the use of multis...

    The reason a lot of people have backpacks is because no one knows they exist

  • How would it "deter" people?

    If you're not trying to police it, then why would they be deterred.

    A rule that's not enforced is not a rule.

    The only reason you'd want it to be visible is so that it can be reported, either to the community or to Niantic. If Niantic is not enforcing the rule, then the community is taking it upon themselves to be the "Ingress Police".

    So if Niantic is unwilling or unable to act on multi-accounting, even when it's already blatant, how is forcing people to be comm-visible in a secret agent themed game, a good idea? The only justification is that people want to know who's cheating so they can be reported.

  • To give a more specific example, multi-accounting is not enforced in PoGo, and player communities do not police it. As such, it's widely accepted and no-one bats an eyelid.

    Deterrence is non-existent there because it's not policed.

  • Its purely psychological...

    People are less likely to commit crimes if they are being watched, regardless if it results in a punishment or not.


    It might deter many, and those that it won't deter, nothing will, they will cheat regardless

  • That's not how people work.

    Another "Equivalent Scenario":

    • The police have decided they will no longer investigate or prosecute people <the thing'ing> people.
    • The townsfolk got together and said "We don't want to do the job of the police, but if you <the thing> someone, could you fill out this form so we have a register of who <the thing'd> who."

    Either people are going to take the policing ito their own hands or there's zero-deterrence.

    I just want people to be upfront about their intentions by demanding a "comm visible" action here. Because Niantic has shown they have zero ability or interest in policing it.

    <the thing> is a bad word apparently.

  • XQlusioNXQlusioN ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2022

    Look @Perringaiden , I know you are not going to stop until you have forced your opinion as if it is fact, so I'm not going to bother anymore.


    Tying duplication to in-game actions is a good solution for the server load and if by implementing it in a certain way points a few people back to the right direction, that's a win for me.

  • Tying duplication to in-game actions is a good solution for the server load

    Based on what @NianticBrian said on Twitter, it's still going to be a problem.

  • DrHydrosaurDrHydrosaur ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2022

    Not everyone is a sociopath, most will respond to pure socialization incentives.

    The point would not be to completely eliminate backpacks or lag, but to reduce both.

    It’s not clear how much backpacks and lag will be reduced but such a change will at least nudge both in the preferred direction.

    Plus, what’s wrong with requiring an agent to go out and do something active in the game to trigger a benefit?

  • MoogModularMoogModular ✭✭✭✭✭

    But that's socially saying "you shouldn't have anything to hide" when people want privacy to some extent.

    Why should replication be broadcasted?

  • DrHydrosaurDrHydrosaur ✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think anyone is saying replication should be broadcasted. It’s that you shouldn’t get the benefit of replication on an account that doesn’t actually play the game.

    All one would have to do is attack, capture, or link portals. If an agent isn’t doing any of that what do they need replication for?

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    Key duplication needs to stay, but not via the current mechanism.


    @NianticThia this is an excellent opportunity to rework Quantum Capsules as Very Rare Kinetic Capsules, to enable limited key duplication, but needs to be more challenging than just walking 8km

  • HosetteHosette ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Grogyan I think key duplication needs to be all-or-nothing. Any halfway measures will be subject to cheating.

    For example, I was recently in a PoGo raid with someone who had walked, from memory, 173 km the previous day. (Margin for error on my memory is around 10%.) If key duplication gets switched to some sort of kinetic cap then sales of phone rockers will skyrocket.

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hosette not unless it is tied to a Very Rare K cap, which has a very tiny drop rate.


    So even if you had a rocker, you still had to go out and play for several hours to get just 1 VR K cap

  • HosetteHosette ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Grogyan And how would bad actors abuse THAT? Hint: We're all far too familiar with it.

    I get where you're coming from, but that's basically a system that would mean that cheaters got to duplicate a lot of keys and legit players wouldn't.

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hosette it's no different to bot and backpack accounts now generating loads of keys with zero effort

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    K caps can work with the old, naive, system of working out distances between portals. Though I don't know how it would effectively work against bad actors.


    We still end up with the same ol' problem. Effective and easy 2FLA

  • HosetteHosette ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Grogyan One of the reasons for my proposal is to get rid of "bot and backpack accounts now generating loads of keys with zero effort". Keys and other gear, actually. One of the ways that I analyze any game mechanic (in Ingress, poker, casino games, basically anything I play) is to ask how bad actors would react and I think I know the answer for your VR Kcap proposal.

    I've come around to the idea that keys shouldn't duplicate in capsules, or maybe shouldn't duplicate for more than say 1-2 weeks after they're hacked.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭

    Niantic DO action multiaccounting bans. It's just hard to get it done. I've had some success as have other locals.

    Peer pressure also works. We've had players clean up their act when they have been spoken to re obvious multiaccounting.

    There are also community chat bans etc, its not all up to Niantic to enforce this.

  • That only works if the team with an issue player wants to do something about it. As the opposition, that's largely impossible.

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    Being one that has gone out specifically to farm remote keys, I do prefer for key duplication. Just not the current implementation.


    I have also sent Thia a method to eliminate bots and backpack accounts. A while ago, no idea if the devs have reviewed them

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