Skill trees as a method of player advancement

PangarbanPangarban ✭✭✭✭✭

This idea has been mentioned in another thread about levels 17-24, but I think it is enough of a separate idea to discuss in its own thread. The ideas I'm listing below are just my random thoughts, if you don't like one particular aspect that doesn't necessarily mean the whole idea is bad. Throw out your ideas, as sensible or crazy as you like, and let's see if Niantic can find something they want to give us in the game.

I definitely like the idea of adding new advancement in some way. The concept of a skill tree looks like one way to do it. In that case it wouldn't need to be "Player levels 17-24", but instead "Skill levels 1-8" in a variety of skills, which become open to players when they recurse. Players could still recurse when they reach level 16 again while continuing to develop their chosen skill.

My thought is that players could only unlock one skill at recursion. Each new recursion would allow another skill to be unlocked, but players could only work on one skill at a time. Along with that, I think it would preserve balance more if players could only have the benefits from one skill at a time as well.

The idea of skills could work in something else some players have been asking for: daily tasks. For example, if you choose to work on Skill X you would get a set of daily tasks each of which would contribute to advancing that skill. Note that I am suggesting one way this could be implemented.

I don't have a detailed idea of what the skills would be, and what benefits they would get, but I have a few vague ideas. One would be for the skills to unlock new Kinetic Capsule recipes. For example "Recharger" skill could unlock the ability to craft L8 cubes out of lower level cubes. An "Attacker" skill could unlock the ability to make L8 bursters out of lower level bursters.

I absolutely agree with what @SSSputnik says in the other thread about the need to be very careful to maintain the game balance and preventing the skills from making players OP.

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Comments

  • This is absolutely brilliant and I completely agree. The drone feature new map layers, kinetic capsule has shown that Integrating new game features is exactly what active players want. Also if we're paying a subscription now which alot of us are, there is no excuse to not Keep delivering new features. I really don't care about the extra storage or the load outs I just want to see this game kept interesting !

  • PkmnTrainerJPkmnTrainerJ ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes. Skill trees are a great idea. This is already in Wizards Unite which has allowed players who hit max level to gain more skills.

    In some other games, skills are level locked so I think that this could be applied even pre-recursion.

    You reach level 2 and tap a node to unlock extra XM storage, and maybe another skill like 2% increased XMP damage. The big skills would be locked behind recursion of course.

    Also, of interest would be allowing some players to do “no skill runs” and progressing from 1 - 16 in the “legacy” path where you do not gain additional skills but still get the XM storage increase. Maybe there could be a “no XM” part where players could challenge themselves to progress through without the usual increases even and then gain a medal for this?

  • TheAuraStormTheAuraStorm ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    I love the idea of perks and skill points / tree that are common in RPG’s.

    it creates a sense of an “opportunity cost”, rather than it being a level playing field, where everyone does the same damage with weapons, resonators are the same health, XM bars the same size, same amount of inventory space*, same hack output, etc.

    *keeping in mind that the subscription and the 6th key locker exist.

    This could really add another dimension to gameplay, allow agents to specialise a build that not only compliments their play style, but enhances it.

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    I like it. Especially only able to use one skill at a time.

    Recurse. Choose skill X.

    Only benefit from that skill till you choose another at next recursion.

    If you have recursed a lot, this could seem a waste, maybe be able to switch skill once a cycle? Tying it to crafting. Not sure, if you want to expand gameplay, crafting could be a separate area, but some skills impact crafting ability?

  • Sound idea.

    Another craft idea would be to perhaps kinetic capsule 8 level 6 resonators into 8 level 8 resonators, for those who are remote and struggle to get to a level 8 portal.

  • ShottixShottix ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed there needs to be something else to interest recursed players, I have recursed back to 16 and have no reason to recurse again other than the little number in the brackets changing. I would like to see daily tasks, as for advancing levels I'm not sure, I wish they had made the second recurse take double the medals, so for recurse number one takes 2 onyx 4 platinum, I would of loved to see the second recurse take 4 onyx and 8 platinum, with a different coloured flare. But this ship has sailed. You know the game is broken when some agents can do 1-16 in one day. I also would like to see (which could be tied into daily task rewards, possibly a 7 day daily task Streak, redeemable tokens for things like x2 counter toward a certain badge for 30 minutes or similar. So you activate the token and it gives you x2 count on your deploying badge, or linking badge. This gives you an incentive to earn the tokens and a worthy reward cutting down on the 7 years it would take to get a linking onyx. So much can be done with this game to make it less of a boring grind. As for crafting I don't agree with that concept, I think making level 8 portals for level 8 kit is something you do as a team and we shouldn't give them away they are hard to earn

  • SSSputnikSSSputnik ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very good ideas. @NianticBrian thoughts.

  • Pretty much everything’s already been said so I’ll just add my agreement to this. It’s a great idea. 👍🏽

  • Sounds like a great idea.

  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sequences of tasks, similar to Special Research tasks like A Mythical Discovery in Pokémon Go, could make sense in the context of skill trees. I would prefer those to daily tasks, which can go the way of the dodo bird and never come back. (Ingress is not a Tamagotchi egg, always in need of attention and care. An active game board is what should keep me glued to my scanner.)

  • The only issue I have with daily tasks is that often regular players miss out because of work commitments. So by all means have a daily task but make the time frame for completion longer (i.e. complete in a 24hr period from date a. To date d). As someone who regularly works weekends I’ve often missed out

  • edited February 2021

    I generally like the idea, though the issues of power imbalance between new players and existing players would have to be carefully addressed. One of Ingress' key drawcards for many new players is the low barrier to entry and relative equality. The primary difference between L8 and L16, is experience and a bit more XM, so these advantages would have to be managed, given the average new player's time to 16 (the point where these unlock) can be a year or two of regular play.

    I like the daily tasks idea, though as mentioned on another thread, that would be a good expansion for all play, not just skill expansion. With Daily Tasks in place, adding tasks for skill points as just another task would be good, and wouldn't require you to gain 40million AP for a minor increase, as was suggested in the other thread.

    @Toxoplasmolly

    When an Agent recurses, they select one of the 13 Archetypes from Ingress's lore.

    IMO 13 different skill trees is far too many. I'd boil it down to four or at most five.

    • Builder - Advantages in building such as skills to deploy an extra resonator of various levels, deploy an extra mod, upgrade mods.
    • Purifier - Increased XMP damage (I wouldn't change range, it's a key limiter), reduction in XM lost from incoming attacks etc.
    • Controller - Increased range on links, increased link count at a portal, higher likelihood of keys dropping when destroying enemy fields.
    • Energizer - Increased effectiveness of recharging, double XM from ground collection and cubes.

    Fifth would be something along the lines of a collector to hack gear, but that benefit could be rolled into the others as hacking extra resonators/mods, bursters/XMPs, keys, or cubes.

  • 1valdis1valdis ✭✭✭✭✭

    At the beginning I wasn't fond of something like that. But the more I read the topic, the more interesting this stuff sounds.

  • InvestigateXMInvestigateXM ✭✭✭✭✭

    I personally don't think that a skill tree should be locked completely behind a Recursion. Some people, for one reason or another, take ages to reach L16, and having what are basically buffs behind a 3 year play time rubs me the wrong way. What I could see is that you earn skill points via collecting AP or something like that, and Recursion gives a boost to that, like double the skill points per X AP.

  • 1valdis1valdis ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    Having achieved L16 after 3.5 years of playing I totally agree that skill trees should NOT be locked fully behind recursion. How about an ability to progress some, less powerful, skills at L9 and further? And have the rest of juicy stuff after recursion(s).

  • InvestigateXMInvestigateXM ✭✭✭✭✭

    Either that, or have the whole Skill tree open from the start and use Skill points you collect... somehow. Everyone has access to the tree, people who don't want to recurse can still collect skill points and recursed agents gain points faster.

  • 1valdis1valdis ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    Skills reset with the ability to choose skills again from returned points, for CMU? 💸🤑💰

  • MonkeyPeltMonkeyPelt ✭✭✭✭

    Overall I love most of the ideas in this thread, but I think this post comes really close to nailing it! 13 (even 12) "classes" is a LOT, but fits so nicely with the lore. I like the idea of agents choosing their archetype at level 8, or maybe level 12 or so once they understand gameplay mechanics, but only being able to change archetypes when you recurse as this could encourage communities to work together to level agents up and to buy boosts which could help Niantic with revenue to help "balance" archetypes out across each community and create a Magnus.

    I also really like the idea of an "always on" minor benefit and a "triggered/activated" major benefit whether it requires time or actions to be charged up. Also spot on with the idea of the ability for Niantic to tweak or nerf (or not!) major benefits during an anomaly or other event.

    Could be tough to balance, but maybe benefits could be shared if agents are in close proximity to one another? Think: Interpreter normally gets increased output from glyph hacking but if several agents meet up for a farm and an Interpreter is present, all agents from the same faction at the farm get the Interpreter's bonus (or a toned down version of the bonus) as long as they're "in range".

  • PangarbanPangarban ✭✭✭✭✭

    I Like the idea of task sequences which can take as much or as little time as the player wants. I also like your idea of linking the specializations to the different archetypes, as a way of making Ingress lore relevant to day-to-day play.

    The way I envisioned tasks is quite different from the daily tasks from Wizards Unite and Pogo, because I agree that they can just become an irrelevant chore, and as @goulashnikopf said players who have other commitments could miss out. Instead, my idea was to play Ingress, but doing things relevant to your chosen specialization would earn you points. The diminishing returns would prevent people from feeling driving to play more than they might want to, and even a little daily play would earn you some points. This could work alongside the task sequences @Toxoplasmolly mentioned.

    Regarding anomaly play, I actually think this would work quite well with this. It would mean players with multiple specializations unlocked could choose to activate the one most relevant to their role on the day. And then at midnight after the anomaly they could switch to the Explorer specialization for Mission Day. 😊

    On reflection I understand the concerns of people like @InvestigateXM and @1valdis about it being locked behind recursion. I did suggest that the first one be made available at level 8. Perhaps to make it more accessible the first could be at level 6, then second at level 12 and the third at level 16, and then one additional at each additional recursion thereafter. Then more casual players would have access to at least a couple of specializations, and players who don't ever want to recurse could still have three specializations to work with.

  • HydracyanHydracyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    Harry Potter have 3 skilltrees, and The player can freely choose between them any time, however focusing in only one is faster. We could have one option unlocked for everyone, and at every recursion the agent could choose another tree to level up. Or award the skill point at each level, so a unrecursed will have enough points to complete one skill tree (maybe not all branches) and by recursing you unlock access to other trees or just fill up all branches of previous.

  • edited February 2021

    That was the question I'd been going back and forth on.

    If you choose a different archetype is it "gathering additional skills" or are you abandoning an old focus for a new one, thus losing all the other skills.

    Depending on your speed to hit 16 and the difficulty of buying skills in a tree, you may not hit the top of the tree before you hit 16 again, so there'd be plenty of people who didn't change archetypes at that point.

    And in terms of power balance, being able to "collect 'em all" feels like you'd reach a point where a new player feels that someone else is completely insurmountable in all aspects.

  • 1valdis1valdis ✭✭✭✭✭

    @XQlusioN

    - After a recursion, when reaching L8, the agent can either pick the same archetype and continue the quests to level or choose a new archetype and start over.

    - Archetype progress resets if you switch archetypes

    Don't like those. One perk per recursion is too little. Depending on power of perks of course but still. Resetting progress on switch is deleting the efforts that were put in those recursions. I think they should remain after switch.

  • GrogyanGrogyan ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea.


    But it would also create a lot of imbalance. And I can't quite see the potential problems that will happen, be even enough to play against, with players who may be L6 or L7.


    Or even tourists who are not sure what the power struggle is like when they travel.

  • ToxoplasmollyToxoplasmolly ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    When I was imagining this all as selecting an archetype at recursion, I was imagining that an Agent could be at most one archetype at a time. That would put an upper limit on how many skills someone could have access to at the same time, and thus limit potential imbalances between Agents. In a similar spirit, if an Agent switches from archetype X to archetype Y and then back to X, I'm not sure that they should pick up X exactly where they left off. You don't get to remember everything from a previous life with perfect clarity, but you don't necessarily forget it all, either.

    I am also sympathetic to and agree with the concern that putting this all behind L16/recursion is a bit too high of a barrier. We've seen other aspects of Ingress dependent upon reaching L10–L12(?), so I think that would also be reasonable here.

  • ZennZenn ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2021

    Every time this topic comes up I like that people generally gravitate to archetypes... It feels like that's where they were originally going to go but then got sidetracked with the development of the app and whatever they were going to originally do with the back end that they had to shelve.


    I think that this kind of thing can solve some of the problems of ingress if it's done correctly and within an idea for balance. One of the most intriguing things is one or two of the archetypes if you attune to them could let you feel within fields and thus alleviate the problem for people who sit under Fields 24/7.


    the possibilities are really limitless as long as they come at the cost of other abilities like an attacker attunement type archetype would mean that you have less defensive capabilities and the reverse would be true for a defensive type archetype... For instance your bursters do more damage but you can only place one shield per portal. or you can place three Shields per portal but your bursters do less damage. some things just make sense like The alchemist having a bonus to the crafting capsule and the quantum capsule... Maybe at that cost of lowering the amount of items you hack from each portal. or maybe it's just that you can only attune to one archetype at a time and the cost is just that you don't get access to the benefits that the other archetypes offer.


    I also think it would be fun if your normal play basically dictated your archetype.


    When it comes to switching between archetypes there should be a way to do it but make it so that it's not an instant switch otherwise what's the point... Everyone would become way overpowered.

  • MonkeyPeltMonkeyPelt ✭✭✭✭

    The feature doesn't have to be 100% lore-based but I think that trend makes sense for gameplay. One active archetype at a time wouldn't cause veterans to be overpowered and would encourage more community play/strategy.

    I would keep the skill tree minimal (or nonexistent) so agent's wouldn't feel a huge loss if they swapped archetypes. Archetype swapping could be done at recursion, or after completing a lengthy set of objectives. A micro-transaction would feel kinda scummy/pay-to-win here.

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