Yeah, whilst that might be an option for people that live close by, how would you go about it in my case? Drive up there and camp out? Ask people whilst they leave the compound? Seems silly to me.
About your earlier comment on how to police the submits of those portals, those high fences with barbed wire and guard houses are visible on streetview, it could easily be done by wayfarer. Just like all other invalid portals on residential property etc.
Honestly, I would not be the company that advocates military personally to play mobile games on base thanks to encouragement from people with an ulterior motive. The potential security breaches are insane.
You are demonstrating the problem of only considering an issue with how it relates to you personally, versus what actual reality is for everyone else.
Not all places in the world have street view. Not all street views are accurate and up to date. Not all military bases advertise their presence openly.
The large military base that I used to live directly behind shows zero signs of it being a military installation on street view. It's just normal chain link fence. Nothing that would indicate that it's closed to the public via other means. Not far down the road from there, there are multiple public access points where they welcome equestrians to ride their horses onto the base grounds, and only put up warning signs, or might put up signs only when they'll be conducting practice in the area. Should those areas be no-go areas for portals?
Another base area I've seen allows the public to go fishing on base grounds if you have a valid fishing permit, and have cleared it with base operations ahead of time.
You got in trouble one time because you didn't to your due diligence before hand and investigated the area. That's on you. That's not on Niantic.
That's why you recruit them to the game, and once they're comfortable with it, then ask them to show you around the base.
If it's a base that does not normally have civilian staff on it, it's just not going to happen. If it's a base that has housing and families living on there? Kids are already going to be running around playing games, phone or otherwise.
If there is no streetview, and there is no sphere created, how are we going to determine the portal is actually there? This is a big problem in Germany, especially if there are trees surrounding the portal. Whilst the second photo addition can help, it's in no way easy to determine the location. (Especially if the second photo in has no relation or overlap with the first photo, then it's just another picture of the environment without providing additional context.
I think it is in fact on Niantic, by allowing portals on military bases that are heavily guarded. Plain and simple. Are you really suggesting I had to investigate this prior to travelling to a portal? We're playing a frickin' game...
If it's in a zoo and I have to pay to get entry, sure no problem. But if I have to enlist in the military to access a heavily guarded portal, I think we're passing all reasonable effort to make it possible.
I would say a lot of military base portals in Australia would be invalid as the portal was likely submitted illegally.
The exception would be bases that have 'open days'. This would be a few air bases and perhaps a few ports.
Why? Because in military employment contracts it specifies staff are not allowed to take photos on base without base commanders specific permission. (Which I doubt).
Policing this from Niantics PoV is basically impossible however.
You can try contacting the military with basic portal removal instructions and try to get them to get the portal removed.
Did you look at street view before you went to go stop outside the gates?
You're asking Niantic to have a group of people constantly combing over street view to validate existing portals?
There are a number of US bases I can drive right on to with valid sponsorship from a Dept of Defense ID holder, that be reached by phone, and I'm not military at all. Should all the portals on that base be removed? Even all the portals at the military museum that's on base, that they expressly invite the public to come view?
It's not a black and white issue, you should stop thinking of it as one.
In the US, there are military bases that have museums on their premises. Access to the museums still have to go through gate check-ins and be cleared. They still welcome the public to come and view the museums, you just have more stringent entrance to the museums. It's more like boarding an airplane for a flight.
All that said, I do support Niantic's stance that no new POI should be accepted on military bases. Leave the existing portals there alone, though.
Just because a portal exists does not mean you personally have a right to access it.
As for your quip about "Really? You check streetview everytime you visit a portal?" when you're saying Niantic should be using street view to verify a POI submission exists on a military base or not... well, I'll suggest to Merriam-Webster that be used as an example next to "irony".
I highly doubt those bases with a museum are in the 'Highly guarded military compound' category. My guess is they have some kind of public reception or gate where you can buy/request access. Not the same at all.
You're also lost me completely by agreeing no new portals should be allowed, but the existing ones are fine. (Even if in highly guarded areas)
Regarding the streetview: yeah, because not checking streetviewer whilst reviewing portals is completely related. Come on.
You do understand you're taking my comment out of context on purpose to try to push your view point? There are many service members who play these games, both active and retired, join local groups, and then invite local group members to come join them on base. It's legit, and the response I saw from the gate guards the last time I joined one of these outings was them rolling their eyes and told the driver to keep us off the private areas of the base. It's not actually that big of an issue.
That's why you have to have a sponsor with you or easily reachable by phone to enter a military base that allows public access. You do something bad, that person is who it's going to come down on.
Don't try to change the subject from "there should be no portals on military bases" to "reviewers should be checking street view to make sure it's not on a military base". Those are two completely separate subjects.
I didn't remember why I had you blocked on here when I jumped into the conversation, but I'll remember for the future.
And I later clarified that with more text later. You continue to make these forums a miserable experience, though. I'll go back to avoiding this place for awhile again, thanks.
I think @ArtilectZed 's comment that you can't look at this in a black or white manner is insightful. For each rule you would all try to make, there is a something that would be an exception. Each team has their examples of this - that portal that they can get to, that the other team can't. There are portals I am not physically able to get to - there's even one on Mt Everest. Other people are physically able to get there, tho. Do I want to take away their fun because it's too hard for me? Or the person who has a portal right by their house, and they can defend it night and day. Is it fair that other agents have to travel to that portal, and can't easily overcome the advantage the home agent has? Is the area restricted to only certain people? Well, someone is allowed there, or it wouldn't be a problem for you.
CLEARLY there is a lot of disagreement on the subject of what is a fair portal, and I can see why - each side of the argument has good points. Because of that, the game masters put rules in place, and whether we always agree or not, we have to abide by them. We each have the means to appeal decisions that have been made via the Wayfarer Appeals Forum. But then, as in any game, when our routes of appeal have all been used, we need to move on and abide by the rules as clarified by our appeal.
In my experience with this game, those difficult portals are fun and make the game challenging. I've got to recruit, build teams, find someone who can help - it prevents us from being lone wolves, we need to work with our community to get things done. I've lived under green fields that seemed impossible to break - but this caused us to work harder to build teams who could help - there's almost always at least one anchor someone can access, then the rest of the team has to work together to block it so well it's not worth putting back up. There's so much fun in taking something that looks impossible to do, and finding a way to accomplish it. Often it's easier to just complain about it, and I guess that can be fun too. But who wants to be that person?
Are you stuck in what seems an impossible situation? Are you covered by a field you just can't squash down? You've appealed the portal you can't get to or don't like for whatever reason, and not gotten a ruling to go your way? I'd challenge you to take the problem to your larger community, whether it be ENL or Res, and brainstorm solutions. Ask for help. There are really talented players on both teams. I bet there are solutions you haven't thought of yet. It might not be an immediate solution, and it might not be an easy one. Most likely it will involve teamwork. But that's fun!
Again, just my opinion based on my own experience in the game. In my own communities, I pull out this quote a lot - maybe you will like it too. “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, organized citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead As far as I am concerned, it is applicable to Ingress, too :-)
The only thing I know for sure is that is not cool at all taking the time to get to some portal only to find out that you can't access to it.
Hard to reach portals are the best, but limited access means that the portal is unreachable in certain conditions.
But none of this falls into the "cheating" category. I got several portals move away from real location and have been trying to get back to its correct place ever since.
To Niantic, who is the cheater here, the guy who moved it wrong once of the guy who got 20 rejections of moving the same portal to the right location?
Well this is the point, and I really don’t understand why the vanguard pushes for “pro-military portals”, when the fact is Niantic doesn’t allow new portals on military ground. Plain and simple.
They should just make it clear as day by enforcing this policy without “legacy portals” and just remove them from the game.
Whilst I agree about the island and other hard to reach portals, I really don't in regards to portals 'behind lock and key'. It's frustrating to deal with, because Ingress is then no longer a strategical game, but more a game of 'cat and mouse' or '****-a-mole'.
If the opposing team can throw links to portals that are just plain unreachable for an entire faction, it really takes the fun out of these kinds of battles. I'm all for hard fought portals, portals that require hiking, even daylight only portals; don't get me wrong.
If you didn't mean military base portals in this post, I think you should've clarified like you did with the ones on residential property.
Well, you did state the anchors are valid and a big part of strategy of Ingress.
Indeed I did. However, I don't see me saying "Hey, portals on military bases must be allowed. So says I, the Vanguard".
I was referring to restricted/limited access portals in general. I didn't mention any specific examples as there are literally hundreds of those. What you did here was basically saying that I condone a very specific instance of restricted-access portals.
With covid we have a closed terminal area at the local airport, (shut due to low numbers I guess). The other team has two players who work at the airport and can access the area.
We've tried hard to access it, some idiot spoofed it. However the portals valid and we have not attempted to remove it.
Same goes for any portal at secure area after passport and ticket check. Tons of these.
I do find secure portals where basically only 1-2 people have access a pain in the backside, but usually both factions in an area have access to a variety of them.
I'd much rather Niantic implement a means of curating Wayspots, with an eye towards their different games and what makes each of them fun in terms of number, density, placement, and kinds of Wayspots. I've seen what Algorithms™ and The Masses™ have produced locally in Ingress, and it's just been a proliferation of uninteresting, inconsistently selected objects and places.
But this topic is maybe a conversation for another day, and a different forum.
plus those spoofers are happily clicking Disagree here on every reply pointing out the fact that multiple accounts are not severely punished. Niantic should make it visible again that who kept clicking Disagree on this post collectively and concentrate on reviewing those accounts.
In almost every general post talking about anti-spoofing we could find distractions like this, centering on limited access portals. Nice strategies if this is the reason that you came to the forum and submit the first reply here directly.
If not, the problem still lies in spoofing, not limited access portals.
Comments
Yeah, whilst that might be an option for people that live close by, how would you go about it in my case? Drive up there and camp out? Ask people whilst they leave the compound? Seems silly to me.
About your earlier comment on how to police the submits of those portals, those high fences with barbed wire and guard houses are visible on streetview, it could easily be done by wayfarer. Just like all other invalid portals on residential property etc.
Honestly, I would not be the company that advocates military personally to play mobile games on base thanks to encouragement from people with an ulterior motive. The potential security breaches are insane.
Oh hey captain, what I'm doing? Just driving my friends around base to capture portals and Pokémon.
Yeah somehow doesn't seem plausible to me whatsoever.
You are demonstrating the problem of only considering an issue with how it relates to you personally, versus what actual reality is for everyone else.
Not all places in the world have street view. Not all street views are accurate and up to date. Not all military bases advertise their presence openly.
The large military base that I used to live directly behind shows zero signs of it being a military installation on street view. It's just normal chain link fence. Nothing that would indicate that it's closed to the public via other means. Not far down the road from there, there are multiple public access points where they welcome equestrians to ride their horses onto the base grounds, and only put up warning signs, or might put up signs only when they'll be conducting practice in the area. Should those areas be no-go areas for portals?
Another base area I've seen allows the public to go fishing on base grounds if you have a valid fishing permit, and have cleared it with base operations ahead of time.
You got in trouble one time because you didn't to your due diligence before hand and investigated the area. That's on you. That's not on Niantic.
That's why you recruit them to the game, and once they're comfortable with it, then ask them to show you around the base.
If it's a base that does not normally have civilian staff on it, it's just not going to happen. If it's a base that has housing and families living on there? Kids are already going to be running around playing games, phone or otherwise.
If there is no streetview, and there is no sphere created, how are we going to determine the portal is actually there? This is a big problem in Germany, especially if there are trees surrounding the portal. Whilst the second photo addition can help, it's in no way easy to determine the location. (Especially if the second photo in has no relation or overlap with the first photo, then it's just another picture of the environment without providing additional context.
I think it is in fact on Niantic, by allowing portals on military bases that are heavily guarded. Plain and simple. Are you really suggesting I had to investigate this prior to travelling to a portal? We're playing a frickin' game...
If it's in a zoo and I have to pay to get entry, sure no problem. But if I have to enlist in the military to access a heavily guarded portal, I think we're passing all reasonable effort to make it possible.
This is another point entirely. Heavily guarded military grounds should be off limits for portals.
I would say a lot of military base portals in Australia would be invalid as the portal was likely submitted illegally.
The exception would be bases that have 'open days'. This would be a few air bases and perhaps a few ports.
Why? Because in military employment contracts it specifies staff are not allowed to take photos on base without base commanders specific permission. (Which I doubt).
Policing this from Niantics PoV is basically impossible however.
You can try contacting the military with basic portal removal instructions and try to get them to get the portal removed.
Good luck with this though.
Did you look at street view before you went to go stop outside the gates?
You're asking Niantic to have a group of people constantly combing over street view to validate existing portals?
There are a number of US bases I can drive right on to with valid sponsorship from a Dept of Defense ID holder, that be reached by phone, and I'm not military at all. Should all the portals on that base be removed? Even all the portals at the military museum that's on base, that they expressly invite the public to come view?
It's not a black and white issue, you should stop thinking of it as one.
Really? You check streetview everytime you visit a portal? I don't believe that.
How do museums compare to heavily guarded military bases?
In the US, there are military bases that have museums on their premises. Access to the museums still have to go through gate check-ins and be cleared. They still welcome the public to come and view the museums, you just have more stringent entrance to the museums. It's more like boarding an airplane for a flight.
All that said, I do support Niantic's stance that no new POI should be accepted on military bases. Leave the existing portals there alone, though.
Just because a portal exists does not mean you personally have a right to access it.
As for your quip about "Really? You check streetview everytime you visit a portal?" when you're saying Niantic should be using street view to verify a POI submission exists on a military base or not... well, I'll suggest to Merriam-Webster that be used as an example next to "irony".
You do realize how much this sounds like "infiltration tactics" right?
"Oh no Captain, these guys are cool. They targetted me for my military access, got friendly with me, then asked for access to the base".
I highly doubt those bases with a museum are in the 'Highly guarded military compound' category. My guess is they have some kind of public reception or gate where you can buy/request access. Not the same at all.
You're also lost me completely by agreeing no new portals should be allowed, but the existing ones are fine. (Even if in highly guarded areas)
Regarding the streetview: yeah, because not checking streetviewer whilst reviewing portals is completely related. Come on.
You do understand you're taking my comment out of context on purpose to try to push your view point? There are many service members who play these games, both active and retired, join local groups, and then invite local group members to come join them on base. It's legit, and the response I saw from the gate guards the last time I joined one of these outings was them rolling their eyes and told the driver to keep us off the private areas of the base. It's not actually that big of an issue.
That's why you have to have a sponsor with you or easily reachable by phone to enter a military base that allows public access. You do something bad, that person is who it's going to come down on.
Don't try to change the subject from "there should be no portals on military bases" to "reviewers should be checking street view to make sure it's not on a military base". Those are two completely separate subjects.
I didn't remember why I had you blocked on here when I jumped into the conversation, but I'll remember for the future.
Your literal comment was "If you want access to those portals, find military people with access and recruit them.".
No, it's literally not out of context.
And I later clarified that with more text later. You continue to make these forums a miserable experience, though. I'll go back to avoiding this place for awhile again, thanks.
I think @ArtilectZed 's comment that you can't look at this in a black or white manner is insightful. For each rule you would all try to make, there is a something that would be an exception. Each team has their examples of this - that portal that they can get to, that the other team can't. There are portals I am not physically able to get to - there's even one on Mt Everest. Other people are physically able to get there, tho. Do I want to take away their fun because it's too hard for me? Or the person who has a portal right by their house, and they can defend it night and day. Is it fair that other agents have to travel to that portal, and can't easily overcome the advantage the home agent has? Is the area restricted to only certain people? Well, someone is allowed there, or it wouldn't be a problem for you.
CLEARLY there is a lot of disagreement on the subject of what is a fair portal, and I can see why - each side of the argument has good points. Because of that, the game masters put rules in place, and whether we always agree or not, we have to abide by them. We each have the means to appeal decisions that have been made via the Wayfarer Appeals Forum. But then, as in any game, when our routes of appeal have all been used, we need to move on and abide by the rules as clarified by our appeal.
In my experience with this game, those difficult portals are fun and make the game challenging. I've got to recruit, build teams, find someone who can help - it prevents us from being lone wolves, we need to work with our community to get things done. I've lived under green fields that seemed impossible to break - but this caused us to work harder to build teams who could help - there's almost always at least one anchor someone can access, then the rest of the team has to work together to block it so well it's not worth putting back up. There's so much fun in taking something that looks impossible to do, and finding a way to accomplish it. Often it's easier to just complain about it, and I guess that can be fun too. But who wants to be that person?
Are you stuck in what seems an impossible situation? Are you covered by a field you just can't squash down? You've appealed the portal you can't get to or don't like for whatever reason, and not gotten a ruling to go your way? I'd challenge you to take the problem to your larger community, whether it be ENL or Res, and brainstorm solutions. Ask for help. There are really talented players on both teams. I bet there are solutions you haven't thought of yet. It might not be an immediate solution, and it might not be an easy one. Most likely it will involve teamwork. But that's fun!
Again, just my opinion based on my own experience in the game. In my own communities, I pull out this quote a lot - maybe you will like it too. “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, organized citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” - Margaret Mead As far as I am concerned, it is applicable to Ingress, too :-)
The only thing I know for sure is that is not cool at all taking the time to get to some portal only to find out that you can't access to it.
Hard to reach portals are the best, but limited access means that the portal is unreachable in certain conditions.
But none of this falls into the "cheating" category. I got several portals move away from real location and have been trying to get back to its correct place ever since.
To Niantic, who is the cheater here, the guy who moved it wrong once of the guy who got 20 rejections of moving the same portal to the right location?
You are literally the one who started the discussion about Niantic policing these portals. Which they shouldn’t, wayfarer should.
Well this is the point, and I really don’t understand why the vanguard pushes for “pro-military portals”, when the fact is Niantic doesn’t allow new portals on military ground. Plain and simple.
They should just make it clear as day by enforcing this policy without “legacy portals” and just remove them from the game.
Um... where do Vanguards "push for pro-military portals"?
Well, you did state the anchors are valid and a big part of strategy of Ingress.
Whilst I agree about the island and other hard to reach portals, I really don't in regards to portals 'behind lock and key'. It's frustrating to deal with, because Ingress is then no longer a strategical game, but more a game of 'cat and mouse' or '****-a-mole'.
If the opposing team can throw links to portals that are just plain unreachable for an entire faction, it really takes the fun out of these kinds of battles. I'm all for hard fought portals, portals that require hiking, even daylight only portals; don't get me wrong.
If you didn't mean military base portals in this post, I think you should've clarified like you did with the ones on residential property.
Well, you did state the anchors are valid and a big part of strategy of Ingress.Indeed I did. However, I don't see me saying "Hey, portals on military bases must be allowed. So says I, the Vanguard".
I was referring to restricted/limited access portals in general. I didn't mention any specific examples as there are literally hundreds of those. What you did here was basically saying that I condone a very specific instance of restricted-access portals.
With covid we have a closed terminal area at the local airport, (shut due to low numbers I guess). The other team has two players who work at the airport and can access the area.
We've tried hard to access it, some idiot spoofed it. However the portals valid and we have not attempted to remove it.
Same goes for any portal at secure area after passport and ticket check. Tons of these.
I do find secure portals where basically only 1-2 people have access a pain in the backside, but usually both factions in an area have access to a variety of them.
I'd much rather Niantic implement a means of curating Wayspots, with an eye towards their different games and what makes each of them fun in terms of number, density, placement, and kinds of Wayspots. I've seen what Algorithms™ and The Masses™ have produced locally in Ingress, and it's just been a proliferation of uninteresting, inconsistently selected objects and places.
But this topic is maybe a conversation for another day, and a different forum.
while it takes 3 days to infinity to ban that bot account..
plus those spoofers are happily clicking Disagree here on every reply pointing out the fact that multiple accounts are not severely punished. Niantic should make it visible again that who kept clicking Disagree on this post collectively and concentrate on reviewing those accounts.
completely beyond topic. could you please make the topic stay with talking about anti-cheating
In almost every general post talking about anti-spoofing we could find distractions like this, centering on limited access portals. Nice strategies if this is the reason that you came to the forum and submit the first reply here directly.
If not, the problem still lies in spoofing, not limited access portals.
People keep bringing it up, because much of the spoofing starts out of frustration because of these sorts of portals.
It doesn't excuse cheating, it doesn't condone cheating, but that frustration is often where it 'starts'.