Win-trading is happened again on the FS day

A while ago, I posted two threads related to win-trading, and it happened again by a leading toxic agent and some of his/her followers.

Before reading this post, my previous two threads will be helpful in understanding what happened:

Aug. 1st - https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/11762/is-this-win-trading-and-can-be-a-reason-of-punishment#latest

Oct. 3rd - https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/12308/win-trading-on-an-fs-event-today-let-me-hear-your-opinion-again#latest


In this month, there are two FS events in South Korea while the win-trading agents participated in separate FS events:

Siheung si - https://fevgames.net/ifs/event/?e=18773

Gyeongju si - https://fevgames.net/ifs/event/?e=18764


As can be seen from the case where two Swiss agents were banned by their 'unknown' infringement, I'd like to say Niantic should watch this issue and give their response/answer/stance to us.

You can easily expect what happened on the win-trading site, but let me remind for today's meetup:

  1. Meet at the same time and place without any kind of public announcement or agreement. The FS events they registered are also in different sites while they met on their home city where is not related with any FS city. It's really weird for me.
  2. Four FS hosts strongly prohibited offline meetups while they also encouraged not to hold it as possible. @3car , an ENL host of Gyeongju-si confirmed this point.
  3. Of course they did - destroy and deploy to earn lots of APs in short time.
  4. One of RES agent (@darktempler007) confessed to cheating - GPS spoofing, but I don't think they let him/her know it's wrong.
  5. One of (or more) ENL and RES agents (@raysoda [email protected]) have multi account to use it as additional inventory - I have clear evidences but don't know if Niantic 'really' reviews the reports of cheating.
  6. The meetup negatively affects to the local community for sure, but they look like they cheat with impunity.

Well, they may claim again - "I just used a (or more) battle beacon(s) and wanted to meet my local agents regardless of faction", but the activity should be announced in public before the event as you know.

I have checked the community guideline and mentioning their real agent names does not violate any kind of Ingress community rules (ex: https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/12552/freakyjudge-is-a-spoofer-who-really-ruines-game-in-moscow), so let me list them:

ENL

  • raysoda
  • Jhee5178
  • Yong0724
  • Commaj
  • JStonePiyo

RES

  • SujiSidney
  • Darktempler007

FYI, you can see what happened from here (See the logs of 05:00 UTC ~ 07:00 UTC)

cc: @NianticBrian @NianticCasey

Comments

  • hustldoohustldoo ✭✭
    edited November 7

    The FS event should be conducted with the meaning of getting along with neighboring users. It should not be used as an improper AP acquisition tool. The NIA event was completely unsuccessful.

  • They dont know what VFS means

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    Here's a visualization of the locations and AP gained by each agent who signed up for separate IFS events.

    Five of the core agents used the same location to win trade in August during IFS Busan, a city that's 300km away.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    Thanks for your mention, @madderColor . A little different point of view, I cannot confirm that 'four FS hosts strongly prohibited' part, only myself. And I'm afraid that I also didn't 'strongly prohibit', I didn't say much on this part. Agents on the tg chat can verify these, I cannot lie here.

    However, I believe that we share the same view on the win-trading part, as mentioned in our chat since last August. I'll be happy to support and discuss on this part.

  • Qu4rdQu4rd ✭✭✭
    edited November 9

    Sadly, win trading is no longer an offense since May 2019. Not an offense during events, and not during normal day gameplay either. No one that I know of in my area got banned over wintrading on daily basis.....

    (There were agents wintrading outside events and I got slightly annoyed and asked the agent directly. I didn't ask the reasons, but I checked and found it out.)

    This might shed some light: https://redd.it/bp5tzx

    Also a good source to read: - https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/10/community-guidelines

    As in Nov 2020, win trading is still omitted from the Players Guideline. Now it's just a little annoyance that I can deal with, within the game. Still not comfortable wintrading, but let's go with the flow...

    ------

    I am not familiar with your area, but generally:

    1. It's virtual for now. Location of agents playing is not really an issue, even if they decided to meet physically (unless being told not to by the organisers). I see no issue joining other city or country different that where I am now since VFS started.

    2. Strongly prohibited does not mean prohibited by the law. Unless it's being told that there would be consequences that would affect their participation in the VFS.

    3 + 4 + 5 + 6. Get proofs, report, and win trading is no longer listed as cheating in the guideline.

  • AzhreiaAzhreia ✭✭✭✭✭

    Win-trading is still against ToS, it's just not specifically mentioned anymore.

  • Qu4rdQu4rd ✭✭✭

    Duly noted.

    Guess it's a loophole that some opportunists agents abuse.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    Azhreia, I have heard from another vanguard that win trading still violates the terms of service. Could you point me to any documentation or source of this fact? Was this discussed among the vanguards? Has the Ingress team explicitly stated to you that win trading remains a form of cheating in 2020?

  • NysyrNysyr ✭✭✭

    Cool, now show me where it's actually reportable ingame using Remy.


    Hint: It isn't.

  • AzhreiaAzhreia ✭✭✭✭✭

    From the Feb '19 AMA:

    Q58: For a really long time, lots of Agents from both factions have accused each other of "Win-Trading", a term that was explicitly mentioned in the "Community Guidelines" of Ingress. Even "legitimate" XF efforts like Mission days, IFS and XF-Field-Art have been branded as "Wintrading". A few days ago, however, I noticed that the term is no longer found in either the Terms of Service or the Community Guidelines. Was that an intentional change? (and if yes, why was it changed?) And does this imply that all XF is "fair game" and people can no longer be banned for supporting Agents from the other faction in however they see fit?

    A58: Let me be very candid about this, as I’ve said this before, and it clearly needs to be repeated. Official Niantic events such as IFS, NL1331, Mission Days, Glyph Challenges, Anomalies, etc. are not win-trading. You do not have to like that statement. But those are the rules. Things were changed because it felt redundant. My advice, outside of official events, do not privately collude with one or more people from the other faction to benefit from each other's actions as that is against the spirit of the game and will likely open you up to being reported for cheating. If it is done publicly and without intent to negatively impact the community, such as announcing a cross-faction get together at a bar, that’s not in my opinion cheating because everyone has access to the information about the actions in advance. However, just publicly announcing your actions doesn’t absolve you of cheating. There has to be no negative impact to the community. Announcing you and your xfac friend are going to take down a zero-cell sat phone required Portal that is being currently used as an anchor over a region is likely to get you reported for cheating.

    https://www.ingressama.com/search?q=wintrading

  • AzhreiaAzhreia ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes it is. Report it under "Report Inappropriate Gameplay". Where you also report instances of spoofing, multiaccounting,etc. FIY, those are also not "listed" specifically on Remy.


  • mortuusmortuus ✭✭✭✭✭

    How hard is it ?

    If you're coordinating in advance with the other team, my personal opinion is that it's wintrading.

  • Once again, I ask how these actions are hurting you? Are they impacting you in any way? Report if you must, knowing nothing will happen. And then go play your game and mind your own business. Please. For the love of god. The rest of us are sick of hearing about wintrading on First Saturday. If this is all you have to complain about, get a life.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭
    edited November 17

    "Once again"? You never asked that question. Perhaps it is not me you're asking. Anyhow, I shall indulge you this once.

    Must we only act when we are hurt? Were you taught to keep your head down and turn a blind eye to injustice? Because you remind me of someone who chanted "no politics in Ingress." How was #BLM hurting Niantic when they decided to act? It certainly wasn't impacting their business. Yet they decided to because it was the right thing to do.

    It's up to the players to uphold fair play. People have been complaining that spoofers are driving honest players away. Well, so does win trading. Here's a Camus quote I'd like to share. "Everything I know about morality and the obligations of men, I owe it to football." I am going to hazard a guess that you never participated in a team sport.

    How can you be certain nothing will happen? The burden of proof lies with you. Please provide supporting evidence. For all I know, two agents in Switzerland were banned for win trading during the Beirut IFS.

    You clearly missed the point of these discussions. Krug's answer was from a time before COVID-19 and virtual events. I have been asking for an update of the terms of service, an amendment that reinstates and clarifies win trading.

    If you're not going to help bring about change for the better, don't get in the way of others doing the work. All I see from your comments is vitriol. You are the one who needs to get a life. I pity you.

    Post edited by Ineras on
  • ClutterCutterClutterCutter ✭✭✭
    edited November 17

    I have commented every time this comes up. This is a non-issue regardless of how dramatic you wanna make it. Mind your own business is the only message I have. Spoofing hurts others including the game. Wintrading helps/“hurts” the two involved. 🙄If this is all you have to worry about in life or in ingress, count yourself lucky.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    You know people can look at your comment history, don't you?

    Two you say? How about when there are more than a dozen players in three different cities involved?

    Your message means little if nothing. Provide proof from your earlier statement about the bans.

  • I wish you could read sarcasm. A dozen players in three cities?? That directly affect you and how you play? GIVE IT A REST. You keep providing your proof and reporting and let’s see if anything ever happens. (Hint - no because NOBODY CARES).

  • GoblinGranateGoblinGranate ✭✭✭✭

    Disagree, some of us care. It's just Niantic the one who appears not to care about.

  • Well, I hate Win-Trading as much as you do but I really don't think Niantic would punish players for this "simple" reason...

    It's seemingly not even in the guidelines anymore while 19' Feb AMA is way too old...I doubt why players you mentioned do that on IFS day because even if they pick another date it seems, regretfully, they won't very likely get banned as well ...

    Regarding the two players you described as banned, I suppose they were banned because they are using multiple accounts together with spoofing tools. The real problem is that those two violations often are associated with Win-Traders.

  • mortuusmortuus ✭✭✭✭✭

    some top players got banned recently for win trading so its def not allowed.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    Where, may I ask? I see what I define win-trading as a violation of ToS, but never seen bans 'because of' win-trading. Niantic never distributed reasons behind bans AFAIK, unless it is mass bans, and win-trading is included in it-you never know that win-trading is the one-and-only reason if someone is banned.

  • mortuusmortuus ✭✭✭✭✭

    there was a post here someone with a bilion ap got banned.. cant find the thread now..

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    I'll keep that in mind if I ever wander around the thread in question. Thanks for the info.

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