Is this win-trading and can be a reason of punishment?

madderColormadderColor ✭✭
edited August 1 in General

Let's imagine that:

  1. FS scheduled time
  2. But not in any FS city
  3. XF agents are destroying and deploying on some portals in the same zone to earn APs faster

Is it allowed in general? If not, it would be win-trading in my opinion.

I mean, VFS is held on due to COVID-19 and the goal of VFS is to keep health, not to interpret the rules at will if I remember correctly.

I cannot find any kind of document or guideline about this issue.

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Comments

  • ikaros02ikaros02 ✭✭✭

    If the agents have agreed to destroy each other's portals, then it's wintrading imo. If there is no such agreement and they just happen to play in the same zone and same time, it's okay.

  • I would discourage it. Getting agents together in one spot just gives the virus more opportunity to spread.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    I used to belong in a small community that is responsible for what the OP is talking about. In the past, they regularly met with fellow ENL agents to create and farm P8s in a cluster of seven portals that is in reach from a coffee shop. Within this group is one RES agent who pretty much does everything the ENL leader says. For example, he would flip a couch portal on behalf of her when she asked him to; another example is getting him to bring keys from a restricted area so she could use them. I have left the community but have the evidence for the second case. I write this to assert my knowledge and credibility into these matters.

    In July, this group met at the coffee shop mentioned above to farm 12.8 million AP. That token RES agent was provided with X8s to constantly blow up the cluster, which at this point had grown to nine portals. This month, they invited more players and farmed a total of 14.9 million AP. Both the July and August IFS had physical locations. The July event was held in a park 12km away from the cluster. The August even was held 380km away.

    RedSoloCup had clarified in a June 2019 AMA that what happens during an IFS is OK. The July event officially ended at 17:00. The win traders were busy win trading until 19:18. In August, they worked hard win trading until 18:23.

  • Sounds like a good xfaction first Saturday event!

  • grendelwulfgrendelwulf ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of they are taking turns with an agreed outcome it is win trading, if they are competing to deplete each other's resources and gain control of an area, it is fine.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    Since I am the ENL host of both events mentioned, by @madderColor and @Ineras , I stepped in to speak out my opinion.

    I do admit that I am in good relations with some people mentioned by @Ineras . I also assume that @madderColor is mentioning the same events. Understand that I may be blinded by factions for what I say.

    The two events are quite different for July and August. In July, I clearly stated that there will be an on-site event as well as a virtual one at the same time. In August, I said that we can open a onsite event, if there are enough participants. July event was a disaster, only 4 people. August, though I wasn't there, I think we saw 6. The problem is, we had an official on-site event in July, but not in August. All who comes from my country will agree that many on-site FS attendees go hard for AP. There is no mutual/written agreement, but we have like thousands of lv1 resos and busters bursting around.

    That said, the gathering clearly happened in July and August, in a different city. The logs say so. The submitted photos agree to the same lines, though it cannot be a smoking gun. This is where the question comes in. Is it a simple local XFAC gathering? Might be. Our country unifies into one big event-there is one and only FS per month. Local XFAC can gather to get into the FS mood. But: is this a win-trade? Win-trading is quite poorly defined. There must be agreements between other factions. FS and wintrade are separate issues: there is no agreement to do so but it may look like a win-trade if it wasn't an on-site FS. This series of events are a bit different: it was not organised by the FS event hosts.

    The TL;DR is the same with @madderColor with another emphasis on: it happened, during event time, by a XFAC gathering. I agree that there was a XFAC gathering, but am confused if we should see it as a win-trade.

  • madderColormadderColor ✭✭
    edited August 3

    @3car it looks like your inattentional blindness as you mentioned.

    See what @Ineras said on his/her comment again and check carefaully the time which is mentioned on the last paragraph.

    And you may need to check what @RedSoloCup said before about win-trading for sure. - https://community.ingress.com/en/discussion/1304/wintrade-no-in-events

    If you cannot catch what's wrong, weird, or something goes ridiculous then you look like faction-blinded as you mentioned.

    I'm sure that you know their history which I also know including how they organized Saturday's meetup.

    Be honest for yourself.

    p.s: I did not mention about the area what you said only, but also somewhere in Korea too. Guess where it is.

    Post edited by madderColor on
  • GoblinGranateGoblinGranate ✭✭✭✭

    The IFS itself is an agreement. IFS are by definition Win-Trade scenarios.

    Niantic excluded Win-Trade from events, so IFS is no Win-Trade.

    I believe you are all asking the wrong questions.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    By and large I agree; however, Niantic's IFS page states that the actual event should last two hours. Since both the July and August events began at 14:00, it would be safe to assume they ended at 16:00. The passcodes were revealed for all to claim at 17:00, which is another marker.

    Then there's the matter of location and premeditation. The win traders have taken a stance that they have colluded, but—IFS being what it is—they weren't breaking any rules.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    To the point,

    July's official event time is a whopping 11:00~21:00 local time. I will say official, as I said that checkin-checkout opens/closes on that time. We have l a lot of times going around in July's event, mostly due to partial on-site events that were planned. The organizers declared the end of event at 21:58, through telegram. I sent that message, I can read times, thank you. I also recommend that you check the event page and real time-of events on telegram, rather than based on a single comment here.

    So, back to what really happened that day. We are in event time, which takes us back to my-and you @madderColor 's thread, and not @Ineras 's one. Is it a win-trade? I said, FS are not. Redsolocup said it is not. He also includes that Xfac gatherings are also not. Then what about VFS? As you said, there are no documents. I don't know as well. Do not be biased: we'll never find any document that says what happened 'is a win-trade' or vice versa. What I do see here is that we already have handfuls of opinions saying it is or it is not. I'll be quite surprised if this debate ends with a one-and only solution. This is a repeat of my comment above.

    Finally, I cannot deny that I've got support. That's why I added a disclaimer. That does not mean that I am taking sides-why should I step in as the host of an event when I can conveniently say it is not a win-trade as just an agent 3car? Also, I believe me or not, I was not aware of the events until now. I do not wish to vouch for, I want the issue to be clarified, which I think will be very hard to reach.


    For the P.S., sorry, cannot understand. As said, I was unaware of what happened mostly on both Saturdays. On July I was redeeming a global drop in tessellation, in August I was ticking off checkin-out all day. Feel free to contact me if you wish to provide me information that I do not have.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    You failed to disclose the fact that your friend has also participated in the August win trading, and thus there is a conflict of interest. I understand you value your friendship, but claiming you are not taking sides is absurd.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    May I repeat that I was unaware of the events. I see that some in this thread are determined to see it as a win-trade. I expressed twice personally and am repeating through various channels, my opinion on what happened on both Saturdays stays the same: 'It happened in event time, outside of planned area. It clearly is in July when we announced a on-site event-everything else will be unofficial. In August there was none, and it happened inside event times. What happened during VFS event time, I AM NOT SURE if it is a win-trade or not'. Those determined that it is a win-trade, go for RedSoloCup's answer that is quoted already-report it as cheating as it clearly is giving a negative effect on you. Those that share my view to clarify what happened is or is not a wintrade, I am happy to discuss in this thread.

    I with full honesty say I care not if it really is a win-trade-we are making something clear and helping make Ingress fun and fair. Even with this said and someone wants to say that I am biased, check that you got all your facts right, and then I'll be happy to discuss further.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    Since you mentioned various channels, allow me to point out that you acknowledged you were aware of the two win trading "events" in a Telegram conversation with me on August 1. The timestamp reads 15:32. I see you edited your message. This is when I brought up that they were win trading again, and you did nothing to stop them. When I said your friend was there, you told me that he was there to "farm."

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    Some facts I want to be checked-before mentioning to me.

    • Both events started 11:00 ended 21:00. For July an onsite was planned and executed between 14:00 to 17:00. There was no on-site in August.
    • Event time is recommended to 2 hrs, not fixed. It is an old wording when we had x2 AP. Even then, include check-in, out and restocking, we had 3 hrs minimum.
    • I was supported by some of the people mentioned in this thread for organizing two FS events. It doesn't mean I was just a pawn/etc. If you think that really happened, that is some big disrespect.
  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    In order of Timestamp, It is only my words. The words in () are notes I am adding right now

    1st August

    15:32(editted) I was aware of the event(July) on 1st August.

    15:35 Now to think of it, it(the series of events) may be a problem. VFS and FS are different. we had a onsite FS in July.

    15:53 I was aware that there was a gathering today. I heard it was 'to farm'.


    2nd August

    13:42 I checked the results now (for 1st August)

    18:58 I saw the community(this thread), and saw your comments.

    19:37 Logs and submitted photos are better to

    19:37(edited) argue that the gathering happened in the same place

  • Even you didnt reply my comment, it's fine since you want to protect them. It's common sense.

    It's still ridiculous for me, and I still think that you edited your announcement on Telegram group channel or something to avoid your and your fellows' fault as @Ineras said so. But it's fine too at this point because I want to discuss about this issue with you :D

    Let me ask three points what you mentioned on your own comment:

    1. 1) You said that event time was on 10 hours. Do you really think that it's OK? I joined only only a few VFS cities in this year but the event time was 2hours in maximum.
      1. 2) 10hours of event time is your own idea or someone suggested? If it's the latter one, then I may disappoint for sure.
    2. Let's read IFS organizer's guide and [email protected] guide. I'm sure that you already read these documents (https://fevgames.net/ingressfs/org-guide/ , https://fevgames.net/ingressfs/ifs-at-home/). It looks a little bit ambiguous but the event time is quite clear - it's 2 hours. There is no word such as "recommended", "legacy of former FS events" or so. I'm also in FS organizer's community and I could not find nothing about edited guideline for event time. How do you think about this?
    3. You want to protect your mates for sure. I understand.

    Since FS events are held by Fevgames, it's clearer to ask Fevgames staffs. You will agree with this point.

    Some of my friends (not Korean) just got shocked that FS event time could be extended for 10hours or longer. All of them limited their FS event time for only 2hours, and they are not stupid.

    I say again, be honest. And think about what you are talking about.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    I would like to clarify that the Telegram chat I had with 3car was in private. As in, it wasn't an announcement he made as the IFS host on the event channel. I apologize for the misunderstanding. In hindsight, my comment about his editing did little to add to the issue on hand.

    Having said that, my goal here is to discuss existing rules and hopefully get a Niantic community manager to make necessary revisions.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    You are prejudiced and determined to see it as a win-trade, and me acting as a shield. Mind that you are biased in my opinion. I think it is common sense that you want the majority of the opposing faction are in this series of shameful events. I said quite a lot now but it doesn't seem to reach your brains.

    I will gladly answer your questions.

    1-1) I thought it is okay, why else should I put a 10-hour long schedule in event pages? If you think it is not okay, open a new thread to discuss this. This thread is to discuss what happened 'during event time'.

    1-2) My idea. If it was someone else's idea, why would I be sitting for 10 hours checking in-out agents real-time? They can do the honors instead. Also, may I ask, why does it matter if this was someone else's idea? I would like a straightforward answer for why you asked this, as at the moment I am thinking that you are seeing the FS events are out of my control.

    2) Bring where it says 2 hrs. I don't even see it is ambiguous at all-it doesn't even mention it. Please bring me where and how it says for further discussion. Again, I suggest to read, check, and then bring to discussions. The two-hour started from comments from Ineras. Read, understand, and then bring to discussions.

    3) You want to see the opposing faction punished, I totally understand.

    For others mentioned, open a new thread. Ask FevGames. Report anything inappropriate. I never said don't any of the sort.

    For whatever your friends said, that's what your friends said, just like how I stepped in where one of my friend is involved.

    Be honest, @madderColor . You are prejudiced to think I am shielding, and I understand it may look so to you. Bring anything more to discuss after reading it. We can discuss where we oppose, but I cannot correct every misunderstandings. Lastly, Why don't you say that these are win-trades? I thought this thread was where to discuss it it is a win-trade or not. Not a place where we are discussing if your opinions are right or wrong. I thought better of you, with your long servings to the Resistances in our country. If you keep saying that I'm shielding rather than to clarify the issue, we go separate ways now.

  • madderColormadderColor ✭✭
    edited August 3


    1. You can see the event time is 2hours on the guideline. - search "Event start time +1:00 to +3:00 – AP earned between the first and last hack of any portal within the two hour window will be measured and added as a bonus." This is still valid now.
    2. I also held an FS event in my home city and joined several FS events before/after then, so know the rules well :D (added from here) You said "Event time is recommended to 2 hrs, not fixed. It is an old wording when we had x2 AP." but I cannot find any guide document or post on Fevgames, FS host community, and etc. Who said so? I and most agents believe that FS event time is only for 2hours, not as long as hosts and/or participants want so. I originally thought that FS event time was 11:00-13:00 for this month for sure, but it was not.
    3. I also want the punishment for RES who joined that win-trading, not only ENL.

    I forgot one more question, so want to hear your opinion - from my first comment, I also assumed that "not in any FS city".

    VFS originally allowed recharging only among many of in-game activities during FS event time, but since COVID-19 disaster lasted longer and longer some agents tried to outdoor activities and both Niantic and Fevgames accepted it implicitly: I still cannot understand why some outdoor activities are recommended on [email protected] guide such as "Field art challenge", but whatever.

    I think that outdoor activities must be held on around FS area, not any place where they want. This is why I wrote this post.

    Since you did not mention about this 'location' issue, let me ask your opinion. Is it OK?

    +For your last paragraph: FS host cannot control everything which is going on during the event, so some weird events are out of control for sure.

    So I'm also curious that why you are the only one who is writing on this thread even your mates know this post as well. This is why I think that you look like want to protect them so much. You did not do any kind of toxic activities, so I do not want to blame you as you know.

    For "We go separate ways now", we already did and will do since we are with different faction. You will know what it means.

    And I just saw your edited comments in the above, so if you need more information or want to talk with me in Korean then contact me via Telegram: the same contact point with my agent name while I could not find you on Telegram.

  • 3car3car ✭✭✭

    I'll move our discussions to tg. My bad, I don't use the same handle for tg and IGN.

  • GoblinGranateGoblinGranate ✭✭✭✭

    This is easier than you would even think.

    Let's say this is Win-Trade: what should be expected to happen then?

    I'm interested in seeing the answers since I'll just demand the same thing for some other IFS.

  • There was some FAQ with RedSoloCup or he was answering those questions on NL-1331. If there is open, announced event that everyone can join - it's ok. If it's plot by few agents it's not allowed.

    IFS is just one of XFAC events. Mission days, Anomalies, Hexatlons, NL, even... Goruck are another where people will play together. Against each other but still in one place, which output massive AP if they are well prepared.

    If it's announced you can actively block them (cover whole area with huge field, deploy aegis and recharge with your friends) or join them. If it's secret - it's just illegal. But you can host extended event day - XFAC beer meeting about Ingress trivia with IFS in middle of it. People in your local tg channels of both sides must be informed at least few days before so everyone can react.

    You need to remember this is a game and forbiding XFAC meetings is just toxic. During meeting you can be sure there will be interactions - not as win-trade - as someone wants to win. Just like that.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    The two infractions were plotted by a few in secret. None outside their group was invited. In fact, they chose such a secluded location that nobody noticed them capturing the same portals scores of times a minute.

    The good folks at IngressFS Global Chat have discussed the matter of time. Active charge time, or stats measuring time, should not exceed two hours. The ball is in Niantic's court; win trading needs to be reintroduced in the Terms of Service.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    Apologies for resurfacing a month-old thread, but new facts have emerged. Apparently two agents in Switzerland have been banned for win trading during the September IFS.

    I ask again for the rules to be reviewed and clarified.

    Post edited by Ineras on
  • Gobi130Gobi130 ✭✭✭

    I'm sorry but what is the question? I don't think you need to ask me about this. Regarding Pr0m and azraf, my previous message which you just quoted stands as it is.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    @Gobi130 It wasn't a question. Your post showed that win trading on the day of IFS can lead to a ban. That was my point.

  • Gobi130Gobi130 ✭✭✭

    Hey. It wasn't my original post on the forum. I just commented there because the IFS which I was involved in organizing was mentioned as a cheap stunt to gain sympathy for getting these agents un-banned. Anyway, since you mentioned it and tagged me, how do you know the bans were for win-trading? Niantic never gives exact reasons and we do not know what else these agents were upto. So, I cannot really say that those bans happened because of win-trading. It might be the reason but we don't really know.

  • InerasIneras ✭✭✭

    I checked the link again and realized that I have mistakenly quoted your post when I meant to quote @Radaza's OP. I'm sorry about the mistake.

    You are also shrewd in pointing out that we don't know for sure why those two agents were banned. I came to the conclusion through how the story was framed and circumstantial evidence provided in that thread.

    I apologize for dragging you into the wrong discussion.

  • Gobi130Gobi130 ✭✭✭

    @Ineras No worries. Have a nice day! :)

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